1 |
On 09/10/2017 02:34 AM, Michał Górny wrote: |
2 |
> W dniu nie, 10.09.2017 o godzinie 00∶39 -0700, użytkownik Daniel |
3 |
> Campbell napisał: |
4 |
>> On 09/09/2017 12:47 AM, Michał Górny wrote: |
5 |
>>> W dniu pią, 08.09.2017 o godzinie 17∶19 -0400, użytkownik Rich Freeman |
6 |
>>> napisał: |
7 |
>>>> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 4:05 AM, Michał Górny <mgorny@g.o> wrote: |
8 |
>>>>> |
9 |
>>>>> What do you think about it? Is there anything else that needs being |
10 |
>>>>> covered? |
11 |
>>>>> |
12 |
>>>> |
13 |
>>>> FYI - if anybody does want to make any comments on the proposed |
14 |
>>>> devmanual changes to implement the new tags please comment at: |
15 |
>>>> |
16 |
>>>> https://github.com/gentoo/devmanual.gentoo.org/pull/72 |
17 |
>>>> |
18 |
>>>> For that matter, if you want to even know what the proposed changes |
19 |
>>>> are you should also visit the link. |
20 |
>>>> |
21 |
>>>> List replies seem to be discouraged. |
22 |
>>>> |
23 |
>>>> I realize that some prefer to limit comments to media that are purely |
24 |
>>>> open source. I guess the FOSS Linux kernel provided /dev/null still |
25 |
>>>> exists as an alternative. Honestly, I'm not sure which of the options |
26 |
>>>> are more likely to get read. |
27 |
>>>> |
28 |
>>> |
29 |
>>> TL;DR: Rich, I would really appreciate if you stopped the flamebaits. |
30 |
>>> I understand that you think you're doing Gentoo a favor but you're not. |
31 |
>>> |
32 |
>>> The footers were discussed to death in this very thread. I've heard your |
33 |
>>> opinions. However, as far as I'm concerned (and as I've pointed out) you |
34 |
>>> did literally *nothing* to push your ideas forward for 2+ years. |
35 |
>>> |
36 |
>>> Since I've done all the work, I've did it my way and for the reasons |
37 |
>>> I've explained multiple times. If you disagree, them I'm sorry but |
38 |
>>> in life you don't get to have everything your way. Especially if all you |
39 |
>>> do is complain and expect others to do the work for you. |
40 |
>>> |
41 |
>>> I understand that you're unhappy and since you have no valid arguments, |
42 |
>>> all you can do is try to get more people to support you and shout. |
43 |
>>> Revive the bikeshed as many times as possible, try to make a lot of |
44 |
>>> noise and block changes. Worst case, you've blocked something you didn't |
45 |
>>> like. Best case, you're finally get others so discouraged that they'll |
46 |
>>> do things your way just so that you stop. |
47 |
>>> |
48 |
>>> Rich, this is not a kindergarten. It's time you learn to lose, |
49 |
>>> and accept the consequences. If you can't do that, the door out is open, |
50 |
>>> and you're free to leave anytime you want. |
51 |
>>> |
52 |
>> |
53 |
>> This behavior is not befitting Gentoo leadership. Limiting commentary to |
54 |
>> a walled garden outside Gentoo control violates one of our goals |
55 |
>> (independence), and the incendiary retorts are no more mature than the |
56 |
>> behavior you're criticizing. Nothing will change in the way people |
57 |
>> respond to you until you learn how to treat others. |
58 |
>> |
59 |
>> By all means, I'm glad we're seeing some action on which tags to settle |
60 |
>> with. It's been a mess of confusion ("which tags do I use? Will this |
61 |
>> tick someone off?", etc), and will be easier to build on once we figure |
62 |
>> out the tags that'll work best. It'll be awesome to get automatic bug |
63 |
>> closing from a commit, and I suspect it'll bring a lot of good. Settling |
64 |
>> on tags allows us to automate more. However, as a Council member, the |
65 |
>> Gentoo community looks to you and your behavior as an example. Is this |
66 |
>> the example you want to set for our community? |
67 |
>> |
68 |
>> On the GitHub Issue, you called this mailing list "completely useless" |
69 |
>> [1], and then you sent your message above a little later. Would you want |
70 |
>> to work with someone who talks to you the way you treated Rich? |
71 |
> |
72 |
> Yes, I did call it useless *multiple times*, and I've pointed out |
73 |
> the problems. Considering they were ignored and the quality of |
74 |
> the mailing list hasn't improved, this statement still stands. |
75 |
> |
76 |
> Rich should have talked to me if he had problems with understanding my |
77 |
> comment or missed the context to it. What he did instead is beginning |
78 |
> a public stone throwing session. This is not a kind of behavior I am |
79 |
> going to accept, or respond kindly to. |
80 |
> |
81 |
> It's elementary. If you have a problem with me, talk to me first. Not go |
82 |
> pointing fingers and shouting 'this person is bad'. |
83 |
|
84 |
That's a good policy, one most of us can agree with I think. Sarcasm |
85 |
isn't often understood (or appreciated) by all, but Rich's comment |
86 |
really didn't do anything except highlight how discussion was being |
87 |
moved. This creates a divide in the information and discussion available |
88 |
to other developers. You and others are free to do this, but others are |
89 |
right to criticize it also. Calling an entire community "useless" is not |
90 |
going to magically make it better. |
91 |
|
92 |
> |
93 |
>> None of this bickering is motivating or inspiring to those who read it, |
94 |
>> and leadership should know better than to stoop to this level publicly. |
95 |
>> You will not get more developer activity, agreement, cooperation, or |
96 |
>> contribution by berating your fellow developers. In fact, Gentoo is |
97 |
>> known for its bickering developer community. You are in a position to |
98 |
>> change that. You asserted in #gentoo-trustees that the Council *is* |
99 |
>> Gentoo's leadership. |
100 |
>> |
101 |
>> Is this your brand of leadership? |
102 |
>> |
103 |
>> ~zlg |
104 |
>> |
105 |
>> [1] https://dev.gentoo.org/~zlg/useless.png |
106 |
>> |
107 |
>> (screenshotted since GitHub conversations can be curated.) |
108 |
> |
109 |
> I'm not going to answer to your political propaganda. We don't need more |
110 |
> politicians like you in Gentoo. We need actual people who do stuff |
111 |
> rather than talk about theory to the point when everybody is so tired |
112 |
> nobody wants to do anything anymore. |
113 |
> |
114 |
> |
115 |
I'm not looking for political propaganda. What would I gain from it? I |
116 |
don't really have any strong connections here. In fact I'm probably |
117 |
ticking a few people off. I'm calling your practices out for what they |
118 |
are, since nobody else appears willing or able to. It's flat-out |
119 |
dishonest to complain about a mailing list on one site, then |
120 |
deliberately add flames to the fire less than a day later on the very |
121 |
list you complained about. You are contributing to the very thing you |
122 |
claim to detest. I don't see that as political, because it affects the |
123 |
work that you, I, and other Gentoo devs do. It damages relationships |
124 |
between developers, and if something isn't done about it, Gentoo will |
125 |
continue falling into irrelevance because we can't get our ship to sail |
126 |
smoothly. We all have the ability to improve this, and I gain nothing by |
127 |
writing this e-mail. |
128 |
|
129 |
With this particular issue (git commit tags), I understand bikeshed will |
130 |
happen. Seeking to divide the community between your hand-picked "these |
131 |
people do things (I like), so they're better than the others" and |
132 |
everyone else is destructive to our distribution. It's akin to building |
133 |
a second bikeshed because you didn't like the color of the first one. |
134 |
Why should anyone work with you if you treat them like trash? Because |
135 |
your hands are in many cookie jars? Because you're a Council member? |
136 |
Because you're competent? Libre software projects cannot exist purely in |
137 |
a technical environment as long as there is a human element. You need |
138 |
social merit, and social skill, to get anywhere with collaboration, or |
139 |
you will end up with too much work and not enough time (because you've |
140 |
driven everyone away). That is the beginning of a distro's downward |
141 |
curve -- when collaboration is no longer enjoyable to those who are part |
142 |
of the group. You and I don't know each other personally, but based on |
143 |
where I've seen your name, it's clear you have plenty of technical |
144 |
merit. And some people are your friends (I assume), so you're not |
145 |
bankrupt in social merit, either. Why do you feel entitled to treat |
146 |
others in this fashion? You are already an established member of our |
147 |
distro, and there's no need to lash out at others. |
148 |
|
149 |
Note that I didn't claim that I was good at the social part. Most of us |
150 |
could do better, myself included. Many programmers are gruff and |
151 |
insolent, so it's difficult to learn from them. I have trouble with |
152 |
people who are quick to belittle one's intelligence for making mistakes, |
153 |
so it affects my ability to get good feedback. I don't fancy being |
154 |
abused, having lived through enough of it in my personal life, so I |
155 |
don't seek out those who will abuse me. As a result, I contribute less |
156 |
to Gentoo than I'd like to. I suspect I'm not alone in that. |
157 |
|
158 |
I'm not saying we should flatter each other and put on kid gloves. I'm |
159 |
saying we should treat each other as reasonable adults working on |
160 |
software to the betterment of everyone involved. A big part of Gentoo's |
161 |
problems are in how it deals with developers making mistakes, or the |
162 |
poor accessibility of decisions or processes that are often discarded as |
163 |
"this was already covered", often without links to rationale. QA, for |
164 |
example, means jack if its information is not widely accessible, |
165 |
discussed, and enforced on a consistent basis. I can count on one hand |
166 |
the number of useful QA docs I've managed to find. |
167 |
|
168 |
Does that mean QA as a whole is crap? No. It means that there is a |
169 |
disconnect between those who write the standards and those who need to |
170 |
write *to* those standards. Fix that, and your hatred of "do nothing"s |
171 |
will fix itself because your fellow developers will have better |
172 |
resources to educate themselves with. It has the knock-on effect of |
173 |
convenience: if someone makes a dumb mistake, someone can tell them what |
174 |
they screwed up and link to something that will educate them. IRC bots |
175 |
do this all the time, especially in #vim, so it's not like this is some |
176 |
insurmountable hurdle. Until we get to such a point, it's the |
177 |
responsibility of the more experienced developers to assist those they |
178 |
perceive as "bad" to improve, or their criticism has no weight or |
179 |
credibility. Again, that doesn't mean hand-holding, coddling, or |
180 |
anything of the sort. It means getting people up to speed and |
181 |
understanding that mistakes happen due to incomplete or conflicting |
182 |
information, not malice. If you take a look at other areas of life, |
183 |
you'll see that it's how humanity retains its collective knowledge: |
184 |
passing it down to the less-experienced. Computer science wouldn't have |
185 |
gotten anywhere if the findings and techniques weren't shared. The same |
186 |
is true of Gentoo. |
187 |
|
188 |
A fine example is a recent review I had with floppym in #gentoo-python. |
189 |
To be honest, I was expecting to deal with berating and belittlement, |
190 |
like what happens when I deal with you. But I reserved my judgment and |
191 |
went ahead anyway. floppym was a big surprise. I learned more from him |
192 |
in 10-20 minutes than I have in most other reviews, and now I know more |
193 |
so I can avoid making those mistakes in the future. (I kept notes) I |
194 |
thanked him for his time and willingness to teach me a few things, and |
195 |
Gentoo improved a little bit that day, both technically and socially. I |
196 |
hope the experience was as pleasant for him. |
197 |
|
198 |
(To clarify, I recall floppym and I having a minor tiff months ago. We |
199 |
both overcame that history to improve Gentoo. If you're reading this, |
200 |
Mike, thanks again.) |
201 |
|
202 |
Situations like the above are probably not that special; I assume it |
203 |
happens a lot. But typically, nobody in Gentoo really points that stuff |
204 |
out and congratulates it. I never read about how developers X, Y, and Z |
205 |
pulled together and made a useful feature in Gentoo possible. I never |
206 |
read about the work arch testers and CI and infra put into making our |
207 |
lives smoother. I don't see any stories told about how things came to be |
208 |
for Gentoo. It's shrouded in documents spread across all of infra -- |
209 |
assuming it exists in the first place -- and as a result, the hard work |
210 |
people put into this distro doesn't get a lot of attention. That could |
211 |
be a large source of the general discontentment among some of us. |
212 |
|
213 |
Maybe we should give our developers more credit when they do great work |
214 |
instead of hating on them when they screw up. This method focuses on the |
215 |
good instead of the bad, providing positive reinforcement, which is |
216 |
proven to work in psychology. People like to know they're contributing |
217 |
to something and making something better. If they're not, they want to |
218 |
know *why* their solution is broken and *how* to fix it, so they can do |
219 |
better. |
220 |
|
221 |
If you aren't interested in any of that, I have to wonder why you chose |
222 |
to run for a role that deals just as much with people as it does code. |
223 |
If you have the inclination, I'd be willing to discuss that in another |
224 |
thread, private or public. I've gone far enough off-topic already. |
225 |
|
226 |
(Apologies for verbosity. It's necessary to ensure I don't get |
227 |
misunderstood.) |
228 |
|
229 |
~zlg |
230 |
-- |
231 |
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer, Trustee, Treasurer |
232 |
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net |
233 |
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C 1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6 |