Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Packages up for grabs

[james]

On 08/07/2016 02:38 AM, Consus wrote:
> On 08:48 Sun 07 Aug, Michał Górny wrote:
>> Sure we do. In the meantime, nobody uses gentoo anymore because it
>> still can't deal with accepting contributions and in the meantime the
>> few last developers retired, and users long ago switched to the
>> comparatively recent distribution of Debian stable.
>
> Finally the voice of reason.

Reasonable?  Are you kidding?
<rolling on the floor with laughter, uncontrollably >

In this day and age, quick installs are the mantra, either for VMs or
containers or workstations, particularly for 
application-specific-servers or a variety of security apparatus. 
Although the 'handbook' is an excellent reference guide and noob-filter, 
the simple fact of the matter is most (nix) professionals consider the 
gentoo install system to be arcane and an incredible 'cost barrier to 
entry'. THAT, the lack of a well thought out, smooth, quick/easy install 
which is intentionally not  available, because it  is seen as a satanic 
idea, is the 800 pound gorilla on why folks passionately avoid gentoo.....


As a team, we could have a simple default program for a simple default
disk format, and a variety of 'stage-4' images, maybe updated every 3 
months, to get a gentoo system up, quickly. Not an anything you want it 
to be, but a few, common choices. Perhaps a security apparatus, commonly 
needed, built on the hardened project? (like a bridge or a firewall)?


Then index the noob questions received from  the jentoo-users ML,  into 
the handbook or companion documents, in a hyperlinked FAQ. Folks could 
then work the question/support board of jentoo-user before being 
accepted into jproxy-maint.  JProxy-maint would then need to become a 
collection of docs to read, a half dozen ebuilds to update and then 
bang, junior-dev status where folks can work on non-critical parts of 
the jentoo tree.  And there could be a 'bypass exam' that if you know 
the basics of *nix and shell, you could jump straight into contributing 
on jentoo. Or better yet:: (Fork the tree for the jproxy-maint and 
junior-devs to run themselves. That fork could be limited to a few 
security appliance(s) system, and an embedded jentoo system (rasp. pi) 
and a firewall/bridge. Let them use java* codes, as that is what all the 
universities are teaching and promoting. I agree with gentoo proper on 
severely restricting java*,  on gentoo-proper, but that sort of thing is 
killing gentoo and just appears to the open world as a filter mechanism 
to keep out and go elsewhere, snoot. There are just too many exciting 
and useful codes out there running java.


After 12 years of using gentoo, the gentoo install semantics, still are 
abysmal, imho. I just fundamentally disagree with forcing folks to first 
endure the handbook before getting any gentoo (working gentoo system) 
gratification. That is why 'Debian/buntu' has market share over us. Here 
is a very useful "canned" install that, if emulated, would give gentoo 
reams of "kudos" or "atta-boys" should we publish (provide) something 
like this.[1]

[1] http://blog.securityonion.net/


"Security Onion is a Linux distro for intrusion detection, network 
security monitoring, and log management. It's based on Ubuntu and 
contains Snort, Suricata, Bro, OSSEC, Sguil, Squert, ELSA, Xplico, 
NetworkMiner, and many other security tools. The easy-to-use Setup 
wizard allows you to build an army of distributed sensors for your 
enterprise in minutes!"


We could even call it "jentoo", as it could be labeled to indicate it
is for junior developers to experiment, learn, grow and then become a 
fleeting-gentoo-dev found @ gentoo-dev proper. And yes enjoy the latest 
of from the (insecure) java world.


Restated:: the current (lack) of a slick, simple & quick install 
semantic, is what's killing gentoo, if it is dying. What I run into are 
reams of deeply accomplished technical folks that use gentoo regularly 
and like the current filters that run off the less astute, imho. YMMV.
Most all other rolling distros have a much simpler installation 
semantic, if not a variety of easy install options and ways to participate.

Perhaps a well defined OS model, where gentoo can run (secure) VMs or 
containers from jentoo?   That would expand the model of usage and 
encourage inclusion, provide a pathway to the ultimate gentoo-dev status
and encourage innovation (and failure) all in a secure model?

Heaven forbid that we put up a few dozen (unsupported) jentoo VMs,
container-images or stage-4 (specifically purposed) choices where
folks could only get support from jentoo-user. No sir, we cannot make 
jentoo fun and enjoyable and quick (and sleazy) can we?


And yes allow java, the way it is available on most other distros...
The current process of requiring all the java codes to be broken down 
into 100% discernable codes is a tremendous barrier. After all, most of 
the codes that use that stuff, are full of holes anyway; that's the very 
nature of open, fast, exciting new codes. They only become secure
after years of vetting (fuzzing) anyway. So make the host gentoo image 
very secure and allow jentoo projects to be a VM, or container or such
construct, without all the hassles of gentoo proper. Let the purist 
ensure that gentoo is secure and isolated and let the multitude play 
with java, however they like (in a VM, or a container image or a stage-4).

You have to look at CoreOS and conclude that even folks with deep 
expertise and deep pockets want an easy install (even roll-back) OS.



hth,
James