Re: [gentoo-dev] Programming advice wanted?

[Dennis Allison]

I don't want to start a flame war, but after an initial love affair I
dont't much like Java.  It's not a "better C++", it's a "different C++". I
found the hype associated with the language irritatiing and the lack of
stability as the language evolved unfortunate.  But there are places where
the language was useful and I put aside my personal prejudices and worked
with the notation.

But, I personally don't think Java's a good language for Andrew's
purpose--which is to learn to program.

In a very real sense, I think assembly lanaguage (or even Hex machine 
code) may be a good place to start to learn programming.  A good macro 
assembler is an awesome tool in the hands of a skilled programmer.  Some 
beginning programming books--Yale Patt's in particular--adopt the view 
that everyone should learn about programming from the bits up.  

My point was/is that programming is language independent.  I've always
liked Michael Griffith's comment about programming: "I always use the same
programming language no matter what the compiler" or something like that.  
Using a polymorphic, internally consistent, object-oriented language like
Python is a good framework to learn programming. I think Python does a
pretty good job of capturing the abstractions you need to write simple,
conceptually clear programs.  You don't have to worry about the nits, you
can program interactively and see what happens, and there's not the huge
overhead of type mechanisms to drag into every single little program. The
language is introspective (aka introspective) so programs can learn about
their own structure.

But ultimately the only way to learn about programming is to read programs 
and work with masters in the field.   It's still an art not a science.

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Marc Giger wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:13:42 -0600
> Andrew Gaffney <agaffney@×××××××××××.com> wrote:
>
> > Dennis Allison wrote:
> > > First, it is important to understand that programming is independent
> > > of any particular programming language.  Languages are just the
> > > representation or notation for programs.  Some are large and complex
> > > and likely to get in the way of understanding programming (C++);
> > > others are spare and simple and conceptually clean (Python, Scheme).
> > >
> > > I'd begin with Python and then move on to other languages.  Starting
> > > with C++ is a bit like deciding you want to take up mountain
> > > climbing and that the first mountain you want to climb is Mount
> > > Everest.
> >
> > While I do completely agree with that analogy, C++ was the first
> > (real) language I learned (after Apple BASIC, QBasic, VB, and Java
> > (*I* do not consider Java a real language)) and
>
> I really don't understand what people have against Java?!? Is it
> because of Sun and its license?
> I have many years of experience in java programming and also learned
> object oriented programming with it. In my opinion it's good and clean.
> How many other languages do you know, which works on multiple
> platforms without recompiling, run as a plugin in browsers, has deep
> security concept built in (sandbox, bytecode verifier, etc),
> multithreading as a basic language feature, exception handling, RPC/RMI,
> etc etc etc ...
>
> If someone really is interested in understanding object oriented
> programming then I would advise to begin with Java.
>
> > it gave me a broad understanding of the way that any language works.
> > Because I know C/C++, I can easily pick up new languages because I
> > don't have to learn new concepts.
>
> Agreed, but as you said, your first language was not C/C++ but Basic,
> VB, Java etc. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you
> learned(hopefully) object oriented programming mostly with Java.
>
> In my case I learned OOP in Java and could utilize it to C++ without
> big problems. The only strange thing was weird language constructs and
> discrepancies in C/C++.
>
> Please don't get me wrong.
>
> Regards
>
> Marc
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@g.o mailing list
>

-- 
Dennis Allison * Computer Systems Laboratory * Gates 227
               * Stanford University *  Stanford CA  94305
	       * [phone] * [phone] fax
	       * allison@×××××××××××××××.edu
	       * allison@×××××××××××××××.edu



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