Re: [gentoo-project] Representation of Gentoo on third-party platforms

[Roy Bamford]

On 2016.11.10 12:12, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@g.o>
> wrote:
> > On 2016.11.09 22:41, Rich Freeman wrote:
> >>
> >> I'll agree that the current system relies on people who feel that
> >> Comrel isn't doing a good job to appeal their cases to the Council.
>  I
> >> completely support making changes to have more oversight of what is
> >> going on.
> >
> > Nobody knows if comrel are doing a good job or not.  That's the core
> > issue. Appeals are far too late in the process and too infrequent to
> > determine that.  Its the community that need to be convinced too,
> > not council nor the body of developers.
>
> I've yet to see evidence that "the community" thinks that there is a
> problem.  However, while maintaining confidentiality (which you've
> said you believe is necessary) ultimately the confidence is going to
> need to come from the oversight of elected bodies.

Agreed.

>
> > Oversight is something that is exercised continuously/frequently,
> not
> > after the event.  It's oversight that ensures that decisions when
> they
> > are reached are supported rather than questioned by the community
>
> As far as I can tell Comrel decisions ARE supported by the community,
> notwithstanding the maybe half-dozen people posting in threads like
> these.

The community falls into several groups. Those who care enough to post.
Those who don't care until they get involved with comrel and those
indirectly affected by comrel actions that find another project to support 
instead of Gentoo.  The last two groups cannot be quantified.

I'm sure the largest group by far, is the don't cares.

For the avoidance of doubt, community includes users that do not yet
contribute back to the Project. 

>
> The number of people coming forward with concerns is probably smaller
> than Comrel itself.
>
That's probably true.  Its always thus in volunteer organisations. 
You only ever see the tip of the iceberg.  

> >>
> >> So, while I think some steps to have a bit more oversight are
> >> warranted, I'm really not expecting it to lead to any drastic
> >> revelations.  It isn't like Comrel is detaining people in Gitmo.
> If
> >> there was some trend of inappropriate action I'm pretty sure those
> >> impacted would find a way to make their concerns known.
> >
Inappropriate action includes inaction for any reason. 
I partly agree. Developers would talk to council. Individuals less 
familiar with Gentoo may see lack of response as a sign of Gentoos 
disinterest.

Let me digress into a personal anecdote. I have needed to employ a
number of contractors for household maintenance over the years.
One of them did an outstandingly bad job for me nearly 40 years ago. 
I still remember their name and address.  I told friends and work 
colleges all about it too.  I've forgotten contractors from that time that 
did good jobs.  I don't want to see Gentoo discussed and 
remembered for reasons like that.

> > They would just not apply to become Gentoo devs. Maybe start a
> > project of their own ...
> > Community here, includes anyone who contributes to Gentoo.
> > I don't share your confidence that many of them would make their
> > concerns known, they would just go away ... path of least
> > resistance.
>
> Well, if they are in fact violating the CoC then that is best for all
> involved.
I don't follow. Why would community members writing to comrel 
be violating the CoC?

> In any case, we have anonymous stats on the degree of
> comrel action, and my understanding is that before the reporting
> period that they cover Comrel was largely inactive.

So emails went unanswered and users appeared to be ignored for this 
period?
Comrel, like council, trustees, infra, security, QA et al. are all projects
that cannot be permitted to become inactive. 

>
> There isn't a lot of room for abuse when Comrel is only taking actions
> a handful of times.  Certainly I don't see Gentoo forks popping up
> everywhere.
>
> > With the mergers, that confidence has been eroded.
>
> Honestly, I think this is something you need to substantiate.
>
> And if you have other ideas for improvements you're welcome to post
> them.  My understanding is that you oppose most of the proposals
> around making Comrel cases public which seems to be what those who are
> most who are calling for change want.

This deserves a post of its own but I don't think we are far apart.
We are agreed that making Comrel cases public is not the way ahead.
That would only swap one set of problems for another.

>
> --
> Rich
>

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
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gentoo-ops
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