Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Trying to become a Gentoo Developer again spanning 8 years...

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 2:45 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.
<wlt-ml@××××××.com> wrote:
> On Monday, October 3, 2016 2:04:42 PM EDT Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 12:20 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.
>>
>> > That has been part of my problem. I disagree with such questions, the
>> > answers, so can get hung up on those questions on the quiz. Why one
>> > review took 2 hours and did not max it past the 10th question on the 1st
>> > of 3 quizzes.
>> Your agreement with the question isn't really the concern.  Your
>> understanding of the correct answer, and willingness to comply with it
>> is.
>
> I disagree with the correct answers.

As I said, your agreement isn't the concern.  Compliance is the
concern, and if there is a difference of opinion on that part then it
is MUCH easier to deal with before making somebody a dev than after.

>
>> There are Gentoo policies I personally disagree with.  I still comply
>> with these policies.  If I didn't comply with policy I'd expect to be
>> called out on it.  If policies are bad they can be changed, and I have
>> more of a say in that than most, but it isn't like I can just make the
>> policies anything I want them to be.
>
> If I can change code from the outside. Then I can change/effect policies just
> the same, no? Must I be a developer to change Gentoo policies?

Obviously not.  You're making an appeal for change now.  Ultimately it
is up to the community to decide whether policy ought to change.  You
don't formally get a vote in that now, but influence matters more than
votes anyway, IMO.

>
>> If the mentor didn't think you would work out, you wouldn't even be
>> talking to the recruiters.
>
> Then why does comrel require to see things from a contributor the mentor has
> already?
>
> Its basically says, yes your are the mentoring developer, but we do not trust
> you that this person is ready to be a developer. So we will put our own
> requirements onto this person. Who despite you working with them, and your
> awareness of their recent actions. Since we/comrel are not aware of this
> persons contributions, because we have not done any research. Nor do we trust
> the mentor that this person is ready to become a developer.

Ultimately making somebody a developer is a fairly important decision.
You can call it distrust if you wish, but it is the sort of thing that
requires rigor.

This is no different than the opposite situation.  If a random
developer decides that you aren't worth keeping around, can they just
ask infra to revoke your access and give them their word that they're
sure it is the right thing to do?

This is why we have a process.  If there was a past Comrel action
against you then you're subject to more process than a vanilla
recruit.  However, your history probably benefits you on the technical
side.

>
>> It wasn't any different when I joined Gentoo.  I had two mentors and a
>> recruiter, and while the process with the recruiter was somewhat
>> redundant, it wasn't particularly onerous.
>
> Things were very different when I joined in 2006. If they had been how they
> have since 2006, I doubt I would have ever become a developer. I have seen the
> process become much worse since 2006. The fact that there has been no Java
> team since ~2008-2010 is evidence of such.

I can't imagine things were all that different in 2006 than in 2007
when I became a developer.  I was using Gentoo long before this time
and at least somewhat involved in the community, though I didn't get
involved in the politics of that day other than as an arch tester.
(And nobody gets upset with arch testers if the packages work, we
could use more of them today...)

>
> Could that not be said about comrel? Comrel likely has much less awareness of
> any given recruit than mentors. Comrel is not working them as a mentor would.
> In my experience Comrel has NEVER had any knowledge or awareness of my
> contributions.
>

Well, both the mentor and Comrel have different perspectives.  And
ultimately Comrel doesn't even have the final say since you can appeal
to Council.  No HR-like process will ever be perfect, but there is a
reason we're all on our best behavior during job interviews.

>
> In reality Gentoo could have much worse problems by not being straight with
> the IRS. If that was ever the case, and if someone say me could have corrected
> that. Then comrel/devrel could be directly responsible for some major legal
> issues regarding Gentoo.
>

The Foundation is actually fairly independent from Comrel.  I actually
think it should be less so (not that they should be subject to Comrel
but rather that the Foundation membership should be the same as the
distro dev membership).  However, the reality today is that the
Trustees can retain anybody they wish to assist with taxes/etc.  They
don't need an @gentoo.org address to contribute.  Indeed, they have a
need to retain professional services sometime which are clearly
outside the community.

-- 
Rich