Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Trying to become a Gentoo Developer again spanning 8 years...

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

On Monday, October 3, 2016 3:40:15 PM EDT Rich Freeman wrote:
>
> As I said, your agreement isn't the concern.  Compliance is the
> concern, and if there is a difference of opinion on that part then it
> is MUCH easier to deal with before making somebody a dev than after.

I cannot comply with things I directly disagree with. More so when I know that 
it has brought harm. If I did not give a crap, sure I can go along. But I do 
care, and I also know better, so I cannot just go along with what I know is 
wrong and strongly disagree with.

Others may not care about Gentoo Java, but I do. Others may not care about 
Gentoo's status with the IRS, other than the IRS, but I do...
 
> Obviously not.  You're making an appeal for change now.  Ultimately it
> is up to the community to decide whether policy ought to change.  You
> don't formally get a vote in that now, but influence matters more than
> votes anyway, IMO.

I am part of the community. That is something people seem to forget. So comrel 
takes action. Does that mean the person is gone from the Gentoo Community?

I have seen several that were kicked remain as a contributors. You really 
cannot get rid of people. They can change email, IP, etc. Which is why I feel 
actions like bans, suspensions, kicking people, does little in the long run. 
Most all can me circumvented...

> Ultimately making somebody a developer is a fairly important decision.
> You can call it distrust if you wish, but it is the sort of thing that
> requires rigor.

It is important technically. This is a technical project not social. All that 
matters is things progress technically. Social should only matter if it hold 
back tech. But in fact its the trying to keep the peace socially that is 
hurting Gentoo and holding it back technology wise.

Exherbo and Funtoo existing do not help Gentoo. Anyone driven away from Gentoo 
still contributes else where. Why not keep them contributing to Gentoo? Only 
Gentoo stands to lose.

> This is no different than the opposite situation.  If a random
> developer decides that you aren't worth keeping around, can they just
> ask infra to revoke your access and give them their word that they're
> sure it is the right thing to do?

Why should anyone be removed per request of another? Why not take it to a vote 
of all members?

Focus should be on preventing and resolving matters rather than punishment...  
Look at the US prison system. People rarely learn from punishment. Most times 
it will just anger them, and cause they to behave worse.

> This is why we have a process.  If there was a past Comrel action
> against you then you're subject to more process than a vanilla
> recruit.  However, your history probably benefits you on the technical
> side.

Even if those past actions were mistaken...

I had more scrutiny as a experienced developer than new recruit. With the past 
having nothing to do with it. Like when I did get into quiz review more time 
was spent than I had reviewing all quizzes years ago.

Part of my complaint there, Gentoo does not have a different recruiting 
process for returning developers or new developers. It should never take that 
long to process a returning developer as it does a new. 

> I can't imagine things were all that different in 2006 than in 2007
> when I became a developer.  I was using Gentoo long before this time
> and at least somewhat involved in the community, though I didn't get
> involved in the politics of that day other than as an arch tester.
> (And nobody gets upset with arch testers if the packages work, we
> could use more of them today...)

Before that time frame there was no exherbo or funtoo.... It sucks some I 
worked with are on both. Gentoo lost out on allot of talent. Things were very 
different in the past, and Gentoo was mainstream and moving forward.

At the present, Gentoo has become an obscure distro, fallen from mainstream. 
That can be due to many factors. But one major factor is Gentoo not progress. 
You can blame it on Ubuntu Arch etc. No other distro is responsible for 
exherbo or funtoo. No other distro is responsible for Java suffering for 
years...

> Well, both the mentor and Comrel have different perspectives.  And
> ultimately Comrel doesn't even have the final say since you can appeal
> to Council.  No HR-like process will ever be perfect, but there is a
> reason we're all on our best behavior during job interviews.

From my experience comrel/recruiting always has the last say. Even if I 
appeal, who processes me after? Comrel and recruiting... There is no getting 
around those two entities.

I even wonder what authority the council has over comrel. What if comrel 
sought to take actions against council members?

> The Foundation is actually fairly independent from Comrel.  I actually
> think it should be less so (not that they should be subject to Comrel
> but rather that the Foundation membership should be the same as the
> distro dev membership).  However, the reality today is that the
> Trustees can retain anybody they wish to assist with taxes/etc.  They
> don't need an @gentoo.org address to contribute.  Indeed, they have a
> need to retain professional services sometime which are clearly
> outside the community.

Gentoo's entire structure is not what it was intended to be. I have spoken to 
Daniel Robbins a few times about this. Things I had in mind long ago with 
changing Gentoo's structure, the foundations role, etc were more in line with 
what he had intended things to be. Though I believe most do not want that, 
likely out of ignorance and status quo, rather than not wanting thing to 
change for the good.

Few projects have structure like Gentoo. Which is also in part why Gentoo has 
unique issues, though they can be similar to others. Still very different just 
the same. I spent time looking into others, FreeBSD, Gnome, Debian, etc.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.