Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Trying to become a Gentoo Developer again spanning 8 years...

[Daniel Campbell]

On 10/06/2016 05:54 PM, NP-Hardass wrote:
> On 10/06/2016 08:32 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>>[snip]
>>
>> On one hand I understand the privacy angle, but if information is kept
>> secret by Comrel in the interest of "privacy", how would we find out
>> about any decisions made in poor judgment, an over-reach in power, or
>> merely misunderstandings?
> Anonymous statistics as already proposed work to show the general trend
> of action by ComRel, and if a person feels that they have been unjustly
> treated by ComRel, they have the right to appeal to ComRel and the
> Council.  Like a court system.  You appeal to the next higher level
> until you hit the top, if you truly believe that the decision against
> you was unjust.    Minor ComRel incident->Full ComRel incident->Council
> review->(legal issues)->Trustees

Right. The statistics I think will help keep a "heartbeat monitor" on
the developer community and put things into perspective a bit. However,
the right to an appeal doesn't really tell us much. How would corruption
from another group be found out about? Appeal to the Council and hope
for the best? The series of events makes sense if the Council has the
power to compel Comrel for information or audit.
>>
>> [snip]
>> As a side note, why do we have Comrel if we're all expected to act like
>> adults? Adults solve problems by communicating, and having an opaque
>> group mediate conflicts doesn't strike me as ideal. If two people have
>> trouble and cannot solve it, they go their separate ways or learn to
>> work past their differences.
> And what do you do when one person decides to continue to harass
> another, despite another person trying to move on?  You have to have
> some sort of mediation with a third party when things break down in bad
> scenarios.  What are you going to do if a developer starts sexually
> harassing another?  Are you going to expect that the person is just
> going to stop?  And what if they don't?  That's why ComRel exists.  As
> they say, you try to handle the issues on your own first, and if that
> fails, then you escalate to ComRel, who attempts to mediate, if
> mediation fails, then it may escalate to official action.  ComRel is not
> running around with a ban hammer beating people up left and right.
There are indeed times where you have to bust out the power tools and
issue ultimatums. I'd like to believe those times are not as numerous as
people may be led to believe, and that in some cases, all options may
not be exhausted before resorting to forceful removal.

Sexual harassment is a legal matter, to be frank. We can take measures
to reduce its occurrence, but I'm sure we both know that technical
solutions for social problems don't really work. We can ban and remove,
but a persistent harasser will make new nicks, new e-mail addresses, may
publicly harass and/or stalk someone, etc. Past a certain point, the
victim may need to press charges or seek other avenues of power, e.g.
talk to Freenode about IRC harassment, report to the attacker's e-mail
provider, etc.

I'm trying my best not to paint Comrel one way or another because I've
not interacted with them, but with the recent situations coming to
light, I don't think it's unwise to at least question what goes on,
which is why we're having this conversation.
>>
>> Leadership requires accountability. Trustees and the Council have some
>> degree of accountability, and can be removed from their positions as the
>> developer community pleases. With a group as influential as Comrel, I
>> would expect some level of accountability and responsibility. If we're
>> going to trust a group with what's essentially HR, their decisions
>> should be backed by an accountable person or group, such as the Council
>> (or a similar group within Comrel that answers to the community).
> It's the case with all representative governments.   You elect some
> officials who appoint others.   If you don't like their choices, you
> speak to them, or vote for someone else.
>>
>> In that vein, I believe that if Comrel is responsible for a particularly
>> unpopular or otherwise disruptive change, they should be held
>> accountable for it, including finding "replacements" or filling the
>> holes left by the developer(s) they may take action against.
> How do they do that?  They can't force another developer to take their
> place, nor can they suddenly will up other developers into existence
> (which still has the force issue)
>>
>> Additionally, we should think about conflicts of interest. Should we let
>> people act on both the Council and in Comrel? I recall certain
>> situations call for council members to abstain from certain votes. Is
>> that true of matters involving Comrel as well? QA? There are multiple
>> "pits" of power, and I think we as a project should do what we can to
>> ensure that powers between groups don't become imbalanced as one or a
>> small group consolidate power among themselves and use it as a weapon.
>>
> Now, as far as conflict of interest is concerned, since the appeal of a
> ComRel issue is a Council appeal, I think that a conflict of interest
> warrants special attention.   Whether we are best with a policy
> preventing holding both positions, or forcing someone to recuse
> themselves, I think we'd probably benefit from either.
+1

-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
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