Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Yuri K. Shatroff]

On 12.03.2013 14:30, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 12/03/2013 12:01, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote:
>>> Following your logic, if there's even one tool to make life easier
>>> everything has to be absolutely easy. So we should now utilize fancy
>>>   wizards? Once again, that's following your logic.
>>
>> not "has to be easy", but definitely, with such purpose.
>> Do you disagree? Perhaps you reckon that the whole purpose of computing
>> is to make life harder? :)
>
>
> You know, this general topic rears it's head about every six months. The
> answer never changes:
>
> Gentoo is what it is, it works a certain way for a reason. Maybe you
> like it, maybe you don't. Either way that is not going to change anytime
> soon. What you could do is pitch in and do all the same heavy lifting
> that our long-term devs have done, and be the change you want to see in
> the world.
>
> That might involve dealing with the protestations of the existing devs
> though and they will likely quote the "Gentoo is what it is" line.

So, who argues? Gentoo is what it is just like everything is.
I only don't see in that fact any reason for driving off users when they 
find issues.
One could say: oh crap, it's an issue, or more probably, "okay we note 
that and get it fixed in a couple of <our free time units>"
Instead people immediately take on the face of almighty gods, and start 
a long talk about what gentoo is, spending their own time, and others' 
time (who read it) for just saying not too meaningful, if quite 
meaningless "it is what it is" (with some perceived connotation "you 
fool it's not your business").

You think I want to change the concept, the design, or any feature of 
the software, or to have it changed. But I humbly don't want anything 
except perhaps a little different attitude toward the user.

Please forgive me if I said that not quite clearly.

> I think you just don't understand the group and technical dynamics that
> are at work here. Gentoo is not a product, it's a tool kit. Nobody ever
> claimed that drivers moving in and out of 3rd party vendor space to and
> from mainline would be tracked and dealt with and documented. It is up
> to the user to track that and decide what they want to use. It is the
> user that must be aware of possible incompatibilities between his chosen
> packages and deal with the results. A Gentoo system cannot possibly work
> any other way - you built the thing using provided tools, deal with th
> result of your creation.

Is it a design problem or a big change of principles to fix a package to 
check kernel compatibility? (in this case)
Is it impossible or too hard to fix?
Is confirming an issue or fixing it a stain on the reputation of yours, 
gentoo, linux or whatsoever?
Is that petty issue worth so long a discussion about the philosophy of 
gentoo vs <your_unfavorite_OS>? :)
I can understand that it is not possible to track everything and that 
there are more important things to do. But I can not imagine one 
protesting against an improvement on the sole base that "we are not 
<your_unfavorite_OS>" :)

I don't deny user's responsibility for what he's doing. But I don't see 
a reason not to improve a package after a user found an issue and thank 
him for that (at least not blaming him) :)

But please don't count as if I was demanding something, these were but 
philosophical questions. :)

> I don't see why you are getting so upset. The OP asked a question, he
> got an answer. He seems OK with it, so why are you getting offended on
> his behalf?

In no way. I don't know if it is my English that sounds to you so 
differently from what I'm trying to say.

What I could be upset with, is that this story is turning into attacks 
on me which have no basis except misunderstanding.
I only have to repeat that I thought the words said to the OP a little 
harsh and wanted to defend him because everyone once gets into such a 
situation for the first time, and experience is what had been needed 
most when you hadn't it :) so that he wouldn't take it too hard :)
I only wanted to reconcile everyone and instead got blamed myself. But 
that's quite common, so I'm not upset even with that :) I hope I have 
not insulted anyone either.

-- 
Best wishes,
Yuri K. Shatroff