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Hello, Neil. |
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On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 10:03:44 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: |
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> On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 21:01:34 +0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote: |
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> > > > It seems it's insisting on removing all packages but one which |
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> > > > satisfy a virtual. Maybe that is unwise, and it should keep _all_ |
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> > > > such packages which are currently installed. |
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> > > Well, the whole point of an any-of dependency is to only require one |
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> > > of them. Why force packages to stick around if they aren't needed? |
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> > I would say all packages in @system _are_ needed, unless the user |
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> > explicitly says otherwise. |
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> They are, @system is a set of packages and nothing it it will be |
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> depcleaned. However, openrc is not part of @system, the virtual is. |
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Ah, that's it. So we have critical system packages which aren't part of |
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@system. I think openrc is a critical system package. |
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> > > Now, whether daemontools actually should satisfy the dependency I |
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> > > don't want to comment on without doing more research. Surely though |
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> > > there is little point in having openrc and systemd and runit on the |
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> > > same system unless the user explicitly wants this (and if they do they |
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> > > can just stick them in @world). |
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> > The user might be switching between them, doing comparisons. (No, I |
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> > don't know if this is practical.) I don't know either whether it's |
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> > practical to boot Gentoo with just daemontools. But there are use cases |
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> > which require both openrc and daemontools on the same system, so there's |
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> > something not quite right about the service-manager ebuild, or emerge. |
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> That is possible, but it is also possible that this is entirely down to |
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> you installing things outside of portage and handling their dependencies |
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> manually, creating unwanted side-effects like this. |
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Quite the contrary. If I'd've stuck to the daemontools I installed from |
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a tarball, this whole thing wouldn't have happened. It's BECAUSE I |
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switched to using the portage version that this danger reared its ugly head. |
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> > I think that would be solving the wrong problem. The fact is, it is |
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> > easy, far too easy, to shoot yourself in the foot here. As well as |
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> > openrc, --depclean also wanted to remove nano (the editor) for the same |
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> > reason. That might be serious for some people. |
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> It did that because you have another suitable editor installed. I don't |
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> like nano so I'm happy to install something else that satisfies |
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> virtual/editor and let depclean get rid of nano, knowing that it won't do |
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> it unless I already have a suitable alternative installed. |
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> > Maybe the answer is to regard --depclean as a tool for experts only, |
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> > since it is capable in ordinary innocent use of rendering a system |
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> > unusable. |
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> I feel it's more a case of Gentoo being a system for those that |
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> understand what they are doing with the system - with great power comes |
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> great responsibility and all that. |
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That feels needlessly patronising, Neil. I fear the Gentoo maintainers |
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will take the same attitude. Not only can the user shoot himself in the |
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foot, but it's Gentoo that provides the gun, innocently wrapped, with a |
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"press here" direction on the packaging above a hidden trigger. Nobody |
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accepts any responsibility for preventing accidents. |
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The implication of what you say is that nobody should use portage |
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without understanding every last intricate detail of it. This doesn't |
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feel reasonable. |
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Nobody but me seems to see anything wrong with all this. It's one thing |
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saying users should look after themselves, but surely it's quite another |
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thing to provide an obsure mechanism where one's one keypress away from |
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destroying ones system. |
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I'm quite a bit less enthusiastic about Gentoo than I was a few days |
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ago. |
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> -- |
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> Neil Bothwick |
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> Caution, an incorrigible punster - don't incorrige. |
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|
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-- |
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Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). |