1 |
On 06/04/2014 11:11 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: |
2 |
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 5:28 AM, Greg Woodbury <redwolfe@×××××.com> wrote: |
3 |
|
4 |
>> To see this as only freedom for the developer is part of an attitude |
5 |
>> shift over the years that only lessens the overall usefulness of Linux |
6 |
>> and FOSS. It does, in fact, push quite a few folk I know away from the |
7 |
>> Linux arena. It is, to use a political analogy, like the people who |
8 |
>> claim there "is not any real difference" between *any* opposing |
9 |
>> political movements -- that neglects taking into account a great deal of |
10 |
>> technical and historical details. |
11 |
> |
12 |
> I have no idea what do you mean by the last paragraph. This is not a |
13 |
> political discusion (although many would like to see it that way). It |
14 |
> is a *technical* discusion, and therefore there is no real discusion: |
15 |
> the general consensus is that systemd is the technological superior |
16 |
> alternative. |
17 |
|
18 |
It is a discussion about technological things, yes, but the art of |
19 |
dealing with other people *is* politics [1]. |
20 |
|
21 |
Systemd *may* well be technologically superior in terms of having a |
22 |
better method of doing things. (It certainly makes adding items to the |
23 |
mix easier than re-doing all the numbering in SysVinit.) |
24 |
|
25 |
Unfortunately, the advocates and implementers made some major political |
26 |
choices when they (apparently deliberately) chose to put the systemd |
27 |
stuff in /usr/lib instead of /lib. It was pointed out that this |
28 |
abrogated certain parts of the FHS, forced those who would like to adopt |
29 |
it to *not* being able to continue using their machines they way they |
30 |
wished to (I.e. they had to choose between several potentially major |
31 |
changes to do so -- don't have a separate /usr or be forced to use a |
32 |
kernel initrd/initramfs method in order to do so.) |
33 |
|
34 |
These were not mere technical choices, but highly political/social |
35 |
choices. Early on, the violation of the "principle of least surprise" |
36 |
could have been easily fixed by simply correcting the placement of |
37 |
things from /usr back to / but the developers doing the work *chose* not |
38 |
to see it as a mistake or poor choice, and steadfastly refused to accept |
39 |
corrections or patches to improve the work by fixing what many saw as a |
40 |
mistake. |
41 |
|
42 |
That placement error was not the only social/political mistake they made |
43 |
either. Other suggestions and improvements were offered and were |
44 |
ignored or rejected in rather flammable verbiage. |
45 |
|
46 |
As it happens, some of the parties involved work for companies that |
47 |
actually pay them to do work on Linux and FOSS, and have leveraged that |
48 |
role to the fullest. |
49 |
|
50 |
>> I occasionally think about forking projects and fixing some of the |
51 |
>> things I think are the most egregious fsck-ups in some of them, but then |
52 |
>> I really look at what I'm doing and what I enjoy doing, and realize that |
53 |
>> I won't get enough (emotional?) reward for giving up time in other |
54 |
>> significant parts of my life. |
55 |
> |
56 |
> And that's your right, and it's fine. But let *other* developers |
57 |
> choose whatever technologies they want to choose, and (consequently) |
58 |
> drop support for obsolete technologies like pm-utils. |
59 |
|
60 |
Actually, that is not the objection. Developers do and have always done |
61 |
that, but often observed much more concern with a) letting folks who use |
62 |
their stuff know what they were doing, and b) giving a bit more lead |
63 |
time when introducing major changes. |
64 |
|
65 |
> |
66 |
> That's the reason for this whole thread: developers chose the |
67 |
> technological superior alternative; saying that the reason for that is |
68 |
> that there is cabals and conspiracies is blatant ignorance (in the |
69 |
> best case), or spreading FUD (in the worst case). |
70 |
> |
71 |
>>> Or help Samuli to maintain upower-pm-utils; that would be *much* more |
72 |
>>> helpful than spreding FUD about cabals and conspiracies. |
73 |
>> |
74 |
>> There is no need for me to invent Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt -- the |
75 |
>> folks involved are doing quite well on their own. |
76 |
> |
77 |
> I never said you "invented" it. I say you are spreading it, and I |
78 |
> still think that's the case. |
79 |
> |
80 |
>> Also, history (for |
81 |
>> those not doomed to repeat it [1]) provides all that is required to make |
82 |
>> calling it a "cabal" [TINC - there is no cabal![2]] There never was a |
83 |
>> Usenet Backbone Cabal in any formal sense, but there was plenty of |
84 |
>> semi-(un)coordinated activity -- based largely on shared ideals -- that |
85 |
>> gave that appearance. {I was there when Usenet/Netnews was invented, |
86 |
>> closely observing, making minor and not-so-minor contributions, and was |
87 |
>> responsible for some of the "cabal-like" activities.} |
88 |
> |
89 |
> Great; so any kind of group work "semi-(un)coordinated" can be called |
90 |
> a cabal, and it has no (inherent) negative connotation. Then the Linux |
91 |
> Kernel developers is a Cabal; the GNOME devs is a Cabal; the KDE ones |
92 |
> are also a Cabal; and of course the Gentoo Developers who *oppose* |
93 |
> systemd is a Cabal, and so are the ones that *support* systemd. |
94 |
|
95 |
Mo, you misunderstand. TINC is/was a humorous reminder that there was |
96 |
NOT a real "cabal", but merely the appearance of one in the minds of |
97 |
those not involved in the day-to-day operations of real systems and |
98 |
networks. The human mind sees patterns and invents explanations when |
99 |
there is not enough information available. There is no reason to |
100 |
ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance or |
101 |
stupidity (willful ignorance.) |
102 |
|
103 |
|
104 |
>> The mere coinage of terms like "Lennertware," whether or not deserved, |
105 |
>> show that there is a widespread awareness that some developers, in my |
106 |
>> opinion, have over developed egos. [3] |
107 |
> |
108 |
> Yeah, please go and check out the "contributions" (when they exist) of |
109 |
> the people that seriously use the term "Lennartware". Doesn't matter |
110 |
> to what project, check out what they have contributed over the years. |
111 |
> Go on, I wait; it would not take you long, because they usually are |
112 |
> NOT developers, and the few that are actually developers haven't |
113 |
> contributed really that much. |
114 |
|
115 |
In *your* opinion. I have heard some surprising folks say things in |
116 |
private that they would never choose to state publicly. And that covers |
117 |
a lot of people in over 53 years of programming. |
118 |
|
119 |
|
120 |
>> It is all so trite to say "become a developer and DO something instead |
121 |
>> of complaining" but it is not a realistic thing to say when the |
122 |
>> problems are getting so large and interconnected. |
123 |
> |
124 |
> And that's the root of your misunderstanding Greg. There are no |
125 |
> "problems"; this "interconnection" is by design, because many |
126 |
> developers are fed up with a Lego-like plumbing where you can |
127 |
> interchange any basic component like a Lego block, all of them equally |
128 |
> weak and fragile, which makes the testing matrices of all |
129 |
> distributions a nightmare to maintain. |
130 |
|
131 |
I *do* no misunderstand this at all. You attribute to folks (myself |
132 |
included) motivations or misunderstandings that you simply do not have |
133 |
the information or knowledge to know for certain. If someone sees |
134 |
something as a problems that you don't agree is a "problem" it may just |
135 |
be that your experience or expertise is different. |
136 |
|
137 |
There is a large amount of ego preservation and self-promotion involved |
138 |
in these arguments, and many don't have enough insight to recognize that |
139 |
humor and social skill are necessary to succeed. |
140 |
|
141 |
>> Furthermore, it |
142 |
>> denigrates and devalues the "pseudo-democratic" processes that FOSS and |
143 |
>> Linux have worked for years to nurture. |
144 |
> |
145 |
> There was *never* a "pseudo-democratic" process in FOSS or Linux. |
146 |
> NEVER. It would be a *terrible* mistake. |
147 |
> |
148 |
> It has always been a *meritocratic* process. That's why we have |
149 |
> "benevolent dictators" everywhere in the community: |
150 |
|
151 |
It merely claims to be a meritocracy. But like several other *political* |
152 |
models, it boils down to an oligarchy, where those who obtain power by |
153 |
whatever means, whether consciously or unconsciously, do what they must |
154 |
to preserve it. |
155 |
|
156 |
And the early days of Usenet was deliberately modeled in a |
157 |
pseudo-democratic manner. An opinion poll was set up in order to gain |
158 |
some idea about the potential and perceived use for a topic area. If |
159 |
one wanted a topic group established on a widespread basis one needed a |
160 |
fair bit of social skill and perception in order to do so. |
161 |
> |
162 |
> THOSE WHO WRITE THE CODE, MAKE THE RULES. |
163 |
Those who has the gold makes the rules? |
164 |
> |
165 |
> So if you want to change the rules, start writing some code. |
166 |
|
167 |
Been there. Done That. Have the T-shirt. |
168 |
BUT, for *some* reason, I still care. |
169 |
|
170 |
------------ Footnotes -------- |
171 |
|
172 |
[1] Those who are politically active constantly deal with the more |
173 |
politically naive who complain "there isn't really any difference |
174 |
between <group_a> or <group_b> - they all suck." This can be compared |
175 |
to a technologically naive person saying "major software projects can be |
176 |
thrown together by a bunch of programmers just sitting around together |
177 |
at a coffee shop over the weekend." (Don't laugh -- a US Supreme Court |
178 |
Justice said almost exactly that within the past two weeks.) |
179 |
|
180 |
-- |
181 |
G.Wolfe Woodbury |
182 |
<No clever .sig found.> |