Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Optional /usr merge in Gentoo

[pk]

On 2013-08-19 04:55, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:

> Probably for exactly the same reason you or anyone else uses Gentoo;
> USE flags, portage, you can customize at your hearts content...

USE flags, in my mind, are there for minimising dependencies so that I
don't need to install all the crap that binary distros install. That is
why I use Gentoo, in order to avoid all the crap that things like Gnome
wants to install (for instance, I have -gnome, -dbus, -gconf in my
make.conf in order to avoid a heart attack[1]). Customisation are only
possible if you allow to minimise dependencies; and it's also dependent
on a flexible base system (if you put restrictions on it, say, if /usr
can be separate or not[without an initrd], then flexibility decreases).

> I've never used Fedora. I used RedHay back in the day of RedHat 4.2
> (it was my very first use of Linux in 1996), then moved to Mandrake
> (remember Mandrake?), then Gentoo in 2003. I haven't used any other
> distro since then.

This is rather pointless, but I started using a Linux based OS (don't
remember the name, but it came on 9 floppy disks with kernel 0.93) on my
Amiga 4000 in the early nineties. I've used Redhat, Mandrake, Debian,
Slackware and others, landing with LFS in 2000 which I was happy with
but it was too much work so I settled with Gentoo in the early 2000
which is the best compromise I have found. Haven't used any other
"distro" since then either...

> I want Gentoo to keep being the best possible Linux (I *really* don't
> care if it works in *BSD, Solaris, or Windows). Believe it or not, I'm

I want Gentoo to be the best *OS* for me. To me that is achieved by
having the widest possible selection of applications and following
standards as closely as possible (POSIX, FHS). I don't really care if
it's Linux or not but I'm most comfortable in a UNIX like environment.
That said, I think what you are advocating is going in a opposite
direction to what I want... to me the changes you seek are making Gentoo
going from best to bad; reducing choice/flexibility.

> pretty sure that for Gentoo to keep being the best possible Linux, it
> has to use systemd.

I fully believe you think that systemd is the best choice for init
systems out there, but then again you are a Gnome user (as I understand
it) and to me that is quite the opposite from what I want (I abhor the
whole Gnome eco system and Lennart is an old Gnome dev so I can see
where the influences comes from). I happen to think that many small
tools with clearly defined interfaces (i.e. a standard) works so much
better and are so much more flexible than "... the one system to rule
them all...".

> You don't have to agree with that, of course. But please understand
> that I only support systemd in Gentoo, because I love Gentoo.

I understand that. The thing is, as I see it, you "support" (advocate
would perhaps be a better choice of words) systemd and _only_ systemd,
thereby "forcing it down our throats".

> And, putting aside systemd and getting back on topic to the council's
> decision of (eventually) not supporting separated /usr without an
> initramfs; have you ever stopped to consider that, perhaps, that's the
> best *technical* decision? (*gasp*)

I fail to see why I should waste time and resources by having a
duplicate set of tools (one in the initramfs and one in /). How is that
a *technical* solution? I would call it bandaid. There is no difference
from having static binaries in / (it's just a matter of locality). So,
yes, I have thought about it and I don't consider it the best *decision*
(*gasp*).

> When you have almost all distributions converging on that, and even

You said "... customize at your hearts content...". To me that assumes
flexibility. If you take away choice, you take away flexibility. To me
that's a contradiction. That "almost all distributions" are converging
is a non-argument; it says nothing about "technical" excellence
(whatever that means). It may merely mean that the devs in said distros
have given up and just "eat" whatever crap they're served because of
lack of manpower or whatever.

[1] Yes, I hate Gnome with a passion ever since using it on those
distros mentioned above.

Best regards

Peter K