Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Optional /usr merge in Gentoo

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:17 AM, pk <peterk2@××××××××.se> wrote:
> On 2013-08-19 04:55, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>
>> Probably for exactly the same reason you or anyone else uses Gentoo;
>> USE flags, portage, you can customize at your hearts content...
>
> USE flags, in my mind, are there for minimising dependencies so that I
> don't need to install all the crap that binary distros install. That is
> why I use Gentoo, in order to avoid all the crap that things like Gnome
> wants to install (for instance, I have -gnome, -dbus, -gconf in my
> make.conf in order to avoid a heart attack[1]). Customisation are only
> possible if you allow to minimise dependencies; and it's also dependent
> on a flexible base system (if you put restrictions on it, say, if /usr
> can be separate or not[without an initrd], then flexibility decreases).

USE flags are for customizations, and they are available *as long as
someone supports them*.

I don't use KDE (I really don't like it); I don't have nothing KDE
related (not even Qt) in any of my systems. AFAIK, that is not
possible to do in any distro other than Gentoo.

>> I've never used Fedora. I used RedHay back in the day of RedHat 4.2
>> (it was my very first use of Linux in 1996), then moved to Mandrake
>> (remember Mandrake?), then Gentoo in 2003. I haven't used any other
>> distro since then.
>
> This is rather pointless, but I started using a Linux based OS (don't
> remember the name, but it came on 9 floppy disks with kernel 0.93) on my
> Amiga 4000 in the early nineties. I've used Redhat, Mandrake, Debian,
> Slackware and others, landing with LFS in 2000 which I was happy with
> but it was too much work so I settled with Gentoo in the early 2000
> which is the best compromise I have found. Haven't used any other
> "distro" since then either...
>
>> I want Gentoo to keep being the best possible Linux (I *really* don't
>> care if it works in *BSD, Solaris, or Windows). Believe it or not, I'm
>
> I want Gentoo to be the best *OS* for me.

This is where you are confused, Peter. Nobody (except you) cares about
your particular needs, in the same way that nobody (except me) cares
about mine. The developers (Gentoo devs, GNOME devs, systemd devs,
OpenRC devs, kernel devs) don't care (and don't have to) about
particular cases: they have to care about *the general cases*. Some of
them care about some cases, others care about others. As long as a
case has someone(s) to support it, that case will be supported.

So, if you want Gentoo to be the best *OS* for *you*, don't
necessarily expect that anybody will do the work for you.

> To me that is achieved by
> having the widest possible selection of applications and following
> standards as closely as possible (POSIX, FHS). I don't really care if
> it's Linux or not but I'm most comfortable in a UNIX like environment.
> That said, I think what you are advocating is going in a opposite
> direction to what I want... to me the changes you seek are making Gentoo
> going from best to bad; reducing choice/flexibility.

Why? eudev is there, you can use it. OpenRC is there, and if you agree
with its maintainer (who wants to stop supporting separated /usr
without an initramfs), you can keep using it.

And of course, you can freeze all your machines and never upgrade
again; what choices are you being denied? What is being discussed is
that nobody is going to do work for you, so a bad technical
combination (separated /usr without an initramfs) works.

>> pretty sure that for Gentoo to keep being the best possible Linux, it
>> has to use systemd.
>
> I fully believe you think that systemd is the best choice for init
> systems out there, but then again you are a Gnome user (as I understand
> it) and to me that is quite the opposite from what I want (I abhor the
> whole Gnome eco system and Lennart is an old Gnome dev so I can see
> where the influences comes from). I happen to think that many small
> tools with clearly defined interfaces (i.e. a standard) works so much
> better and are so much more flexible than "... the one system to rule
> them all...".

And who is stopping you from using your "many small tools with clearly
defined interfaces"? The code is there; if you are willing and able,
you can tune everything as you want.

Just don't expect someone will cater to your specific needs.

>> You don't have to agree with that, of course. But please understand
>> that I only support systemd in Gentoo, because I love Gentoo.
>
> I understand that. The thing is, as I see it, you "support" (advocate
> would perhaps be a better choice of words) systemd and _only_ systemd,
> thereby "forcing it down our throats".

First, I maintained an overlay for having only systemd (no OpenRC) for
several months, so I would say support.

Second, when I have said that I want to force *anyone* to use systemd?
Citation please.

I want Gentoo to fully support systemd (and we are almost there). I
don't want to force no one to use it; where did you get that from?

>> And, putting aside systemd and getting back on topic to the council's
>> decision of (eventually) not supporting separated /usr without an
>> initramfs; have you ever stopped to consider that, perhaps, that's the
>> best *technical* decision? (*gasp*)
>
> I fail to see why I should waste time and resources by having a
> duplicate set of tools (one in the initramfs and one in /). How is that
> a *technical* solution? I would call it bandaid. There is no difference
> from having static binaries in / (it's just a matter of locality). So,
> yes, I have thought about it and I don't consider it the best *decision*
> (*gasp*).

Well, discuss it with the OpenRC maintainer, which is the one pushing
the option. *Nobody* that actually has worked in the problem (the
*GENERAL* problem, not "my pc works like that") wants to support
separated /usr without initramfs. Nobody.

>> When you have almost all distributions converging on that, and even
>
> You said "... customize at your hearts content...". To me that assumes
> flexibility. If you take away choice, you take away flexibility. To me
> that's a contradiction. That "almost all distributions" are converging
> is a non-argument; it says nothing about "technical" excellence
> (whatever that means). It may merely mean that the devs in said distros
> have given up and just "eat" whatever crap they're served because of
> lack of manpower or whatever.

I think there is a lot of confusion about what it means that "Gentoo
is about choice". I was against that notion for a long time, but I
turned around and now fully embrace it, with a caveat. Allow me to
state the Gentoo Is About Choice Axiom:

"Gentoo is about choice, AS LONG AS SOMEONE IS WILLING AND ABLE TO
SUPPORT THAT CHOICE".

People are willing and able to support systemd in Gentoo, so that
choice is available. People are willing and able to support GNOME in
Gentoo, so that choice is available. People are willing and able to
support OpenRC in Gentoo, so that choice is available.

*Nobody* is willing *AND ABLE* to support separated /usr without an
initramfs. The general problem, please, not some anecdotal story about
how you have never had problems with it. Therefore, that choice is not
available, unless you find someone WILLING AND ABLE to support it.

Good luck with that.

> [1] Yes, I hate Gnome with a passion ever since using it on those
> distros mentioned above.

It is clear to me that much of your reasoning is clouded by that kind
of hate. I don't hate OpenRC; it is a very good incremental step from
SysV, and I have no problem with it being the default init for Gentoo.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México