Re: [gentoo-user] 2 to 3??

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag, 19. Juli 2007, Stroller wrote:
> On 18 Jul 2007, at 18:40, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> Linus has said it several times that he was ok with the thing Tivo
> >>> did.
> >>>
> >>> And Tivo is the reason for that clause in GPLv3.
> >>
> >> I've seen no evidence that he said this AFTER spending a big chunk of
> >> his own money on hardware, plugging it into his ethernet network and
> >> finding himself frustrated by an inability to copy shows recorded in
> >> his living room to the Tivo in his den.
> >
> > a) nobody is forced to buy a tivo. If you don't like it, don't buy
> > it and you
> > don't have problems.
> >
> > b) AFAIR Linus owns a Tivo himself.
> >
> > c) it is morally wrong to try to dictate HARDWARE licence problems
> > with a
> > SOFTWARE licence
>
> I'm always amazed at how the internet enables folks to _reply to_
> discussion points without actually _answering_ them. But I gather
> that repeating a point three times is nearly as effective as three
> people in agreement each making that point once, so maybe that is
> your intent?
>
>
> a) You ignore all the comments in other posts about the ethical
> aspects of selling locked hardware:
> - end-user's ownership of the hardware they purchase; is the locking
> made clear at time of purchase?
> - anti-competitive practices.
> - environmental damage when obsolete locked hardware cannot be re-
> purposed. It must be disposed of in landfill, lead solder, mercury &
> whatnot leaking dramatically into the water table because the
> firmware cannot be upgraded to one that actually works.
>

if somebody buys locked hardware, it is his own freaking fault. Or could 
ANYBODY claim to be surprised by say Tivo?

Plus, people who are discussing 'ethical' problems with locked hardware tend 
to forget, that there is enough hardware out there that a) needs an update 
once in a while but b) has to be temper proof by the user! You might want to 
read up about clinical equipment or FCC rules. Just for fun.

Also, the new ROHS rules make pretty sure that hardware does not survive for 
long - and most hardware - shocking news, is recycled today because of the 
precious metals used in it. So no landfills, if you dispose the hardware 
correctly.

[removed a lot of preaching]

>
>
> b) I never said Linus didn't own a Tivo himself.
> What I said was that he might see things differently were
> "Tivotisation" to _cost him personally_ time, inconvenience,
> frustration and expense.

if that would be the case he would not have bought a Tivo... 

and why does a temper proof box cause you 'frustration'?

>
> I can't determine in what circumstances this might actually occur,
> but I know I'd be shouting blue murder to the rafters if I wrote
> thousands of lines of code, gave them away for free for anyone to use
> and then some bugger sold that software back to me and prevented me
> from changing it when I needed to.

well, Linus lives the open source. Tivo gave back the modifications they did 
to the community so he is satisfied. Maybe Linus is just a little bit less 
self centered than others?

>
> The active part of the last sentence is "when needed"

and when do you 'need' to hack a tivo? And why do you buy one when you need to 
hack it?
There are other solutions where the vendor does not lock the users out from 
tempering - buy them instead of a Tivo and stop whining.


> - we can
> discuss this forever on the internets, it's all nice and arty & farty
> to talk about morals & philosophies of freedom & software licensing
> but I challenge anyone not to feel offended when those ideals have
> kicked you in the teeth.

who kicked whom? So far most of the kernel people who should be concerned with 
Tivo were pretty cool about it. Only the FSF and some of its fans, made a lot 
of noise.


>
>
> c) WTF!?!?!? Can you justify this statement?
>
> Stroller.

yes. But why should I? Linus' did it several times and he did it a lot better 
than I can ever do it. Just use google.

Some people need to realize that there is a fundamental difference between 
code and hardware. And telling someone what he can do with HIS hardware is 
just wrong. You don't like the terms of the hardware vendor? Fine. Don't buy 
it. But buying it and than complaining is just lame.

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