Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Council vs Umbrella Corp ?

[Jack]

On 8/28/20 12:33 PM, james wrote:
> On 8/27/20 10:11 PM, Dale wrote:
>> james wrote:
>>> Gentoo,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2020/08/25/is-an-umbrella-organization-a-good-choice-for-gentoo/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Surely some of the business/legal savvy folks want to "chime in" on
>>> Sir Gorny's proposal?
>>>
>>>
>>> I just read this on 'hacker news'
>>>
>>> It just sounds like mostly a lack of fund raising to operate?
>>>
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> There's several issues that lead to this.� For ages, the financial
>> books were not kept up to date.� From what I recall, some paperwork
>> was lost which made it difficult to impossible to do the needed IRS
>> filings.  Things on that part seemed to snowball from there.� In
>> the past few years or so, that has been dealt with and from what I've
>> read, it is now up to date and they are trying to get back in good
>> standing with the IRS and other Govt entities.� I think I read
>> where most of the hard work as already been done, just needs time to
>> kick in.� It isn't hard to get into that situation, it just takes
>> one year with a mistake to trigger bad things.� It takes a lot of
>> work to get it cleared up tho.� All of us should be grateful to the
>> ones who put in the hard work to get that taken care of.� I'm sure
>> it took a lot of effort and time to get that done.� I'm sure it was
>> boring as heck to do as well.� Some of us would likely have no hair
>> left.
>>
>> Another issue, not many want to run the foundation.� The devs
>> mostly want to write code.� They aren't to much interested in
>> running the foundation part of it.� A few do because it is needed
>> and they do their best, some even go far beyond that, but they really
>> want to write code.  That's what developers came to Gentoo for after
>> all. Since there is two different bodies that run Gentoo in different
>> ways, it further reduces the number of people wanting to do the
>> job.� The foundation part is from my understanding, bureaucratic
>> paperwork.� Who wants to do that for free?� There's not many.
>> Basically, if you run for a position on the foundation, it's good
>> odds you get it because usually just enough run to fill the open
>> spots.� I often wonder, do they draw straws to pick people to run
>> just so things keep chugging along??� LOL
>>
>> Then there is the costs.� It costs to deal with all the paperwork
>> and filings.� There's state filings as well as federal.� Missing
>> either of those can cause trouble for the other and also get
>> expensive and time consuming to correct.� Again, very few want to
>> deal with it.� The few that do likely do it because Gentoo needs it
>> not because they are jumping up and down wanting to do it.� It's
>> what keeps Gentoo going. It's cheaper to join some other group like
>> has been talked about for years and let them take a percentage of the
>> money and them as professionals handle all that nasty paperwork and
>> filings.
>>
>> My personal opinion.� I'm still leaning to keep Gentoo as it is but
>> I'm not the one doing all the boring work either.� My concern,
>> Gentoo joins some group and it ends badly for Gentoo.� Maybe they
>> screw up something and that puts Gentoo and maybe everyone else in
>> the group in jeopardy with govt entities or lawsuits.� On the other
>> hand, if Gentoo doesn't have the right people, they could do the same
>> thing to themselves.� The people who do run for those seats do try
>> their best even if something goes wrong.� Thing is, it doesn't take
>> much to run afoul of govt entities or trigger a lawsuit. Gentoo has
>> been lucky in that regard.  There is no easy answer to this.�
>> Either way has advantages.� Same can be said for disadvantages as
>> well.
>>
>> I'm sure there is more that isn't known to the public and I'm sure
>> some things are escaping my mind at the moment.� Either way,
>> whatever keeps Gentoo going and successful, that is what needs to be
>> done.� Since I don't have a crystal ball, I'm not sure which is
>> best long term.
>>
>> Now someone add more to this.� ;-)
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)� :-)
>
> The referenced article says this:
>
> "Right now we�re already relying on a CPA to handle our filings. For
> a commercial company (we are one now), the cost is $1500 a year."
>
> Seems way too high. I pay $500/yr for a C corp here in Florida; a firm
> that that is "outstanding" with the US IRS.
>
>
> "If we wanted to go for proper non-profit, the estimated cost is
> between $2000 and $3000 a year."
>
>
> Still seems way to high. With Gentoo, we can use Any state, so why not
> move the home to a low cost state?
>
> Many corps use Delaware, just for that reason.
I think most of those listed numbers are not just the official filing 
fees, but include paying a CPA to do the filings.  While certified CPA 
is not required to do any of those filings, I suspect it is now that way 
because historically, the volunteer who was supposed to do it didn't.  
Paying someone does seem excessively expensive, but you know it will get 
done, and if not, you have some legal recourse.
>
>
> "If we were to pass full accounting to an external company, the rough
> estimate I�ve been given by Trustees is $2400. So once our volunteer
> bookkeeper retires, we�re talking of around $4000 + larger taxes for
> a corporation, or $4500 to $5500 + very little taxes for a non-profit."
>
>
> Again, these numbers are WAY TOO HIGH. Shop around!
> Many states are way less expensive.
Again, I think those numbers are to pay someone to handle the filings, 
not just the fees.  I don't suppose it really changes much about the 
discussion.
>
>
> Ok so ask why don't I volunteer? I've been using gentoo, since 2002. I
> have made many enemies, because of my views on the whole "install"
> abortion. WE could easily help another loosely coupled, gentoo
> derivative distro
> create a robust, easy install system, whilst leaving "Gentoo Proper"
> as an enclave for the brilliant.
>
> It there were agreement to that sort "diatribe", enthusiastically,
> THEN I could help the trustee situation, and help bring in lots of
> cash to pay devs for what every reason the technical leaders decide.
>
> CoreOS, gentoo-install (Mike Mol), CloverOS, and dozens and dozens
> (over the years) have solved this problem, bot did not receive any
> love or praise from the Gentoo devs......
>
>
> So, if Gentoo wants money, as a charity, it is so simple, it hurts.
> BUT a few things have to change (non-negotiable)!
>
>
> I've done this too many times with dozens of folks. ALL are
> multi-millionaires. MONEY is easy, but it does come with strings
> (actually very few for something like gentoo).  The current situation
> is pathetic and easy to fix. Be warned, when it comes to money, and I
> am on the responsibility chain, I tend to be a bit dictatorial. Once
> the money starts flowing in, I'd look to hand things off to a much
> younger techie, so he(she) can build there resume and I can drift back
> into oblivion,
> in a cabin, in the woods.......
>
>
> For me, it just breaks my heart to see Gentoo needed to have one of
> our (currently) awesome coders have to "prostrate" himself publicly
> like this. But, if a broken system/leadership is broken, then that is
> the sign things need to change. This has been a recurring situation,
> for 2 decades now. Just look around, most other distros have so much
> 'action' going on, they are rolling in cabbage.
>
> Perhaps the Gentoo council members ought to engage the gentoo-user
> list, directly? Surely others would have solution, very viable, to
> what I have proposed?
>
> The second thing I'd do, if on the council, is have a direct program
> for High School age kids to use Gentoo to become entrepreneurs. That's
> right, how to form a C-corp, write some codes and start receiving
> funds directly into their C-corp. Minimum goal? Self Funding for
> Secondary education. Learn Business via gentoo, and coding "from the
> masters" aka gentoo devs.
>
> There are tons of methods for young entrepreneurs to access funding
> and grants, if you "get your house in order". For that, it means a
> simple Rasp. Pi. 4 sourcecode install? The microprocessor companies
> would line up to build boards, for these kids. EASY as PIE!
>
> Be Bold and Be Bad_ass, if you want to live and prosper in this day
> and age.
>
>
> painfully,
> James
>
>