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On 10/06/2016 03:02 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: |
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> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@g.o> wrote: |
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>> (Targeting one specific comment here) |
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>> |
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>> On 10/03/2016 11:04 AM, Rich Freeman wrote: |
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>>> [snip] |
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>>> Ultimately if you want to rejoin Gentoo you're going to have to |
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>>> convince either Comrel or the Council that you're not going to create |
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>>> trouble. |
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>>> [snip] |
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>> |
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>> Are you speaking for William's specific situation, or in general? |
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> |
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> I am speaking for the general situation where a developer wants to |
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> return to Gentoo after having been removed as a result of Comrel |
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> action (or with pending Comrel action from the sound of things here, |
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> again I don't have the details personally but am going from what has |
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> been publicly posted here). |
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> |
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>> |
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>> Additionally, it appears that rejoining devs are merely treated like new |
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>> devs. Or at least, *should* be[3]: |
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>> |
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> |
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> They are, when there weren't Comrel concerns from the last time they were devs. |
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> |
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>> |
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>> Given the above, I have to question the validity of Comrel's involvement |
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>> and ask why things that (allegedly?) happened eight years ago are still |
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>> relevant. |
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> |
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> Since I don't know the details of what happened eight years ago I |
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> couldn't comment. Neither could anybody on Comrel who does know what |
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> happened eight years ago since they're bound by the privacy rules. |
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> Presumably Comrel would decide if those things are relevant, and if a |
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> candidate developer disagreed with them they could appeal to the |
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> Council. From what I've seen in the public comments and discussion |
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> the concerns at this point have nothing to do with what happened eight |
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> years ago, but the recent reactions to bringing them up. |
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|
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On one hand I understand the privacy angle, but if information is kept |
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secret by Comrel in the interest of "privacy", how would we find out |
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about any decisions made in poor judgment, an over-reach in power, or |
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merely misunderstandings? |
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|
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One such suggestion might be to join the project. However, I imagine |
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Comrel would want to keep information as close as possible and only |
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share it when absolutely necessary. For privacy this makes sense; for |
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transparency and accountability, it enables corrupt behavior. |
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|
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I have not personally spoken with anyone in Comrel, so I cannot speak |
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about their methods, but without some degree of transparency my only |
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view as a developer is to hope I don't end up on the business end of it. |
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> |
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>> As a case study, who else has had to appeal Comrel or the |
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>> Council to rejoin Gentoo? |
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> |
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> I doubt that anybody could give you the "who" if there was anybody, |
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> again due to privacy. They could speak to how many, and I can say |
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> that I've seen all of two Comrel-related appeals in the entire time |
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> I've been on Council (which is a few years now), and none from |
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> prospective devs. So, I imagine this is pretty rare. There aren't |
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> many devs who have been kicked out in general, and I imagine only a |
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> small fraction attempt to return. Very few even appeal being kicked |
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> out in the first place. |
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> |
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>> |
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>> I think organizationally that each project deserves equal scrutiny into |
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>> its workings and whether or not they are improving Gentoo as a whole. |
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>> That includes Comrel and arguably *any* project within Gentoo, imo. |
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>> |
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> |
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> Hence the reason I opened the discussion threads on aspects of how |
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> Comrel operates... |
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|
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Thanks for doing that. Judging from the multitude of e-mails and |
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responses, it's clearly something that has created poor situations and I |
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hope we're able to move forward to resolutions. |
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> |
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>> |
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>> As usual, this is just my two cents, offered only because I hope I would |
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>> not be treated this way if I were to come back to Gentoo after leaving. |
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>> (That said, I have no current plans of leaving Gentoo. It's just |
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>> something to think about.) Thanks for reading. |
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>> |
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> |
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> Devs who leave without pending Comrel complaints are not subject to |
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> any unusual process when they return, as far as I'm aware. Devs who |
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> had complaints just need to work with Comrel, and the fact that they |
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> had a past issue is not generally disclosed unless they choose to |
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> start a mailing list thread on the topic... |
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> |
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|
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As a side note, why do we have Comrel if we're all expected to act like |
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adults? Adults solve problems by communicating, and having an opaque |
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group mediate conflicts doesn't strike me as ideal. If two people have |
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trouble and cannot solve it, they go their separate ways or learn to |
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work past their differences. |
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|
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Leadership requires accountability. Trustees and the Council have some |
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degree of accountability, and can be removed from their positions as the |
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developer community pleases. With a group as influential as Comrel, I |
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would expect some level of accountability and responsibility. If we're |
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going to trust a group with what's essentially HR, their decisions |
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should be backed by an accountable person or group, such as the Council |
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(or a similar group within Comrel that answers to the community). |
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|
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In that vein, I believe that if Comrel is responsible for a particularly |
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unpopular or otherwise disruptive change, they should be held |
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accountable for it, including finding "replacements" or filling the |
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holes left by the developer(s) they may take action against. |
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|
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Additionally, we should think about conflicts of interest. Should we let |
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people act on both the Council and in Comrel? I recall certain |
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situations call for council members to abstain from certain votes. Is |
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that true of matters involving Comrel as well? QA? There are multiple |
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"pits" of power, and I think we as a project should do what we can to |
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ensure that powers between groups don't become imbalanced as one or a |
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small group consolidate power among themselves and use it as a weapon. |
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|
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I digress, though. Thanks for clarifying your perspective. I have a |
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better idea of what you're talking about now. |
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-- |
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Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer |
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OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net |
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fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C 1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6 |