Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@×××××××××××.org>
wrote:
> On 2014-02-20 1:36 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@×××××.com> wrote:
>>
>> The moment I saw that the profile is already done, I changed my
>> mind; the people using systemd ALREADY did the work (which seems to be
>> trivial, BTW; I didn't knew that either), therefore no one is trying
>> forcing anyone to do work, then a systemd profile is fine (since it's
>> already done).
>
>
> Well, sort of... there are currently only two systemd profiles (gnome and
> kde).

No, the link [1] that Andreas K. Huettel posted in [2] (which I believe you
never saw) *IS* basically all you need for a systemd "profile".

It's, almost literally, *nothing*.

> Is someone wants to use systemd with any of the other predefined profiles,
> ie:
>
> default/linux/amd64/13.0
>
> then their current choice is to change to systemd manually (which as you
and
> others have pointed out doesn't seem to be that big a deal), or, if they
> wanted to make it easier for anyone/everyone else (which, I believe, as a
> systemd proponent, you would be in favor of) to choose systemd at install
> time, they could do the work of creating a new systemd version of each of
> the other profiles.
>
> Hmmm...
>
> Thinking about this more, since apparently using a separate profile may
just
> be 'overkill', how about something simpler, like, for example, using
> eselect...
>
> Something like:
>
> # eselect init list
> Available init systems:
> [1] OpenRC *
> [2] systemd
> [3] runit
>
> (whatever choices are supported).
>
> Or am I just being ridiculous?

No, yo are not; but the switching requires reemerging things because you
need to set some USE flags and quit others. That's the "difficult" (which
is not, really) part; if you set the USE flags yourself or via a profile,
or an eselect module, I don't think the difference matters at all.

>> This is orthogonal to which init system is the default, I think.
>
> No, actually, I think whatever is defined as the current default should
> dictate which group should be required to do the work.

I think this is where we think differently (regarding this particular
point). The work must be done by *whomever* wants to do the job. So if the
systemd people want to do a profile that's fine (and this already
happened); but if they don't want to, nobody can force them to do it (this
is academic right now, since they already did the [pretty trivial] work).

If the systemd people did not wanted to do the job, then, since you can't
force them, the people *not* wanting systemd would be the ones required to
do it. And that makes absolutely no sense.

Again, this is all moot since the profile already exists. And even without
a profile, the change is easy enough.

>> I was just arguing that if a group A of people want a profile X, that
>> group A of people must do the work to get said profile X working. In
>> the case of systemd, that means *using* systemd, so it made no sense
>> to me that the group A did the work, when they *do not* want to use
>> systemd.
>
>
> ?
>
> If Group A wants to be able to easily use systemd in gentoo, then Group A
> people must get together and create systemd version of all of the profiles
> they want to be able to use systemd with... ie, if they want a hardened
> amd64 systemd profile, they would have to create one.

That's the failing in your logic (IMO); if group A wants systemd, they
already got it. No profile would make it easier (since reemerging stuff
will still be necessary), so we don't really need it. Even so, such a
profile (or "candidate" for a profile, if you desire to call it that way)
already exists.

But if nobody wants to do a systemd "proper" profile, that's fine, and
nobody will force no one to write it.

>> Once again, all of this is made moot by the fact that the systemd
>> profile is basically available now. But that does not change my point
>> that if someone wants a X profile, then the burden of work must fall
>> on that someone.
>
> I agree... but since OpenRC is the default init system for gentoo, and
> certain people want to make it easier for people to install and/or switch
to
> systemd in gentoo, then it is on *those* people to do the work.

If someone willing and able wants to do the work, it will be done. If
nobody wants to do the work, the work will not get done. Business as usual
in Gentoo and Linux.

> I'm still not sure why we are still discussing this... ;)

Just some different views on how the work gets done, I think.

> Maybe a language thing?

Possibly.

Regards.

[1]
http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/targets/systemd/
[2] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/272668
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México